Camp Fire Oral History- Barb and Garth Nielsen, March 21, 2019

Interview Transcription

Garth Nielsen: Good afternoon.

Stefani Baldivia: Hi Garth, how are you today?

G.N.: Well, not too bad thank you.

S.B.: That's good news. Not too bad is good news.

G.N.: Well it's a difficult job trying to get back in any sense of normalcy, I'll tell you.

S.B.: Okay. So the first question is -- uh -- what is your name?

G.N.: Okay, Garth Nielsen.

S.B.: Okay. Uh -- what is your age and -- uh -- your occupation?

G.N.: My age is 80. Uh -- my occupation is retired. I've been retired for a number of years now.

S.B.: Alright. Where did you live at the beginning of November 2018?

G.N.: Paradise, California.

S.B.: And what did you do on Wednesday, November the 7th, 2018?

G.N.: Well the day before [laughs], I can't remember what I did -- you know -- 00:01:00that's totally in a fog.

S.B.: Wow, okay. Um -- did you have any plans for Thursday, Nove --

G.N.: Oh! Well -- well -- uh -- [Barb says "We were getting ready" in the background] -- the plans we had was -- you know -- we were in the process of packing and getting ready to move down to Tucson.

S.B.: Okay. Do you wanna tell me a little bit about your plans to move to Tucson?

G.N.: Uh -- well -- uh -- we wanted to -- we had lived there before, and for ten years we were in Paradise. And we were planning on returning, and it was -- uh -- just a -- uh -- we were just planning on coming down and getting ourselves situated, getting an apartment and continue with our lives.

S.B.: Yeah, alright. Um -- so on Thursday November the 8th, how did you become 00:02:00aware of the fire?

G.N.: Um -- Barbara, my wife, had gone to her exercise class, I was in the house -- I don't remember what I was doing but I was totally unaware of anything that was going on around outside in the community. She came in and she said "I think there's a problem", and she went to the computer and turned the computer on and -- uh -- there was a message that was either from the town or the county -- I don't remember which -- that said that certain areas of the town of Paradise were being evacuated. And we couldn't figure out at first what the problem was, then the computer was talking about fire so we went outside on the porch. And the smoke was thick, you couldn't see the sun. And so we said "Maybe we should 00:03:00just get out of here". So we had -- uh -- two real large suitcases -- that -- that -- almost like shipping suitcases with our clothes -- some of our clothes already packed, which we threw in the car. And then we threw another suitcase in the car. And I got in my car, Barbara got in her car and [laughs] we had a deuce of a time just trying to get out of the street we were on onto the Skyway, which we finally did. And what normally takes or normally -- I should say -- what normally took you know 20 to 25 minutes to get down from -- uh -- Paradise to Chico took 5 and a half hours. It was bumper to bumper, and we weren't even doing 1 mile an hour down the hill. And that was the beginning of November 8th.

S.B.: Okay. I'm gonna ask a couple questions that -- um -- will probably take you step-by-step back through that day. So I just want to prepare you for that. Um --

G.N.: Go ahead.

S.B.: Did you know how close you were to the fire?

G.N.: No.

S.B.: I really --

G.N.: No.

S.B.: Where were you physically when you became aware of the fire? You were home, where is your home located?

G.N.: Uh -- our home -- we lived in a mobile home park.

S.B.: Right.

G.N.: We had a large double-wide mobile home that we lived in, and it was on Rocky Lane which was -- uh -- not even a half a block from the Skyway.

S.B.: Okay. And so did you -- uh -- you say you were not aware of how close you were to the fire --

G.N.: No.

S.B.: Did you see it?

G.N.: What?

S.B.: Did you see it?

G.N.: No. We didn't --

S.B.: Did you smell it?

G.N.: Oh yeah! You could smell the smoke, it was -- you could hardly breathe the smoke was so thick. And you hear the thing that -- uh -- gave it away that it was close was the fact that people's -- uh -- propane tanks were exploding, which were fairly close. I said "We need to get out of here now!"

S.B.: Right. So what did you do after you became aware of the fire? Did you start packing?

G.N.: Well we got -- we threw the two suitcases that had most of our clothes into the car and then -- into my car. And then we both -- we have two cars, and we -- we left.

S.B.: So what did you think was happening when you first became aware of the fire?

G.N.: Well [laughs] from the -- what -- like I said we could hear -- uh -- I 00:06:00figured it out because of the thickness of the smoke and the closeness of the sounds of explosions of -- uh -- propane tanks exploding I said "That fire must be very close". It wasn't until we got on the Skyway we -- uh -- we couldn't see anything when we were on Rocky Lane, which is a little street that -- uh -- our -- uh -- mobile home park was on. But once we got onto the Skyway, then -- it was then that you could see the flames. [Barbara says "All the street lights were off" in the background] Yeah, all the street lights were off, all of the business lights were off, all of the private homes' lights were off, and it was blacker than the inside of my boot. But you could see the flames once you got onto the Skyway. [Barb says something in the background]

S.B.: I'm sorry I didn't catch that, would you pass the phone to Barb?

Barb Nielsen: Okay, go ahead.

S.B.: So -- uh -- you had said something about -- uh -- being on Rock Road.

B.N.: Rocky Lane.

S.B.: Rocky Lane, thank you. And then you came to Skyway?

B.N.: We turned onto Skyway, and there were fire people and first responders -- I'm not sure -- but all along both sides of the road guiding us, standing there, answering questions, helping people -- uh -- holding onto people who had dogs and this sort of thing -- I mean -- wonderful, wonderful people. And they were telling us what to do and then we got up where we could have gone either up over -- up to Magalia and over the top of the mountain or down to Chico, and they motioned us to go down to Chico. And we just simply crept down that road, and 00:08:00when were down about at noon -- uh -- at Para -- uh -- we were in the center of the quote/unquote "town of Paradise", which is [laughs] not very large. And the sky was as black as if it were midnight. And we're creeping along, and when we got down to the lower part of Paradise we could see the flames -- uh -- on both sides of the road. And we could see houses [burning] and trees and everything, and there were flaming branches dropping down on top of the cars. And Garth had said over and over "I don't understand why our tires didn't explode", because it was hotter on the road.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: And -- um -- we just simply crept along. And when we got down to -- um -- 00:09:00the point where the two roads split at one point -- years ago there was only one road going back and forth between Chico and Paradise, but -- um -- sometime in the 70s they created a road going -- uh -- up to from Chico to Paradise and one going down. So there was -- you know -- two roads, and -- uh -- when we got there, they split Garth and I, so that I was going on one of the roads and he was going on the other. And so for a good deal of the trip down to -- uh -- Chico, we had no idea where the other one was. And we were just -- we were just numb you know?

S.B.: Yeah. I have to ask you a couple questions backing up, because I asked Garth and I haven't had a chance to ask you.

B.N.: Okay.

S.B.: How did you become aware of the fire?

B.N.: Okay -- um -- I can't remember now, but when I got out of Curves where I went to exercise I must have -- I must have been aware that I was smelling smoke or something was going on. I cannot to this point remember doing that, but I must have done that. And I got home and I said to Garth "We got problems", and I went and turned on the computer and the first thing that jumped out was that they were evacuating section 1 and 5 of Paradise. And I turned around to Garth and I said "What do you think we should do?" And then he said "We need to get the hell out of dodge!" [Laughs]

S.B.: Oh goodness. So was that the catalyst for you --

B.N.: Yes.

S.B.: -- you saw on the computer?

B.N.: Yes.

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: Yeah, that was the thing. If it hadn't have been -- all we had to do was 00:11:00go outside and look, and we knew. Without a shadow of a doubt, we needed to get out now!

S.B.: Yeah. And so how much time do you think passed between the time that you became aware of the fire, and the time that you evacuated? Like got in the cars and hit on the gas.

B.N.: Probably about a half an hour.

S.B.: Wow, okay.

B.N.: We had to -- we had to get the suitcases, we had to get our jackets because we had no idea where we were going -- you know -- we needed coats -- uh -- we needed to -- uh get my purse and stuff all of -- uh -- any papers I had lying around -- uh -- that I could think of to take. We stuffed it in a great big purse that I had. And then we got in the car and took off. And I can remember as we were driving out of the -- um -- uh -- the area we lived, there 00:12:00were other people doing exactly the same thing. In other words, everyone knew that they needed to get out of Paradise.

S.B.: So I have to ask you -- uh -- did you have an evacuation plan for emergencies?

B.N.: Um -- the PG&E had -- uh -- on numerous occasions sent warnings about the fact that everyone needed to have an evacuation plan. Since we were already packed and ready to go, we had everything already ready. So we -- everything was in boxes stacked and all over the place, so in a sense of the word that was our evacuation plan.

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: But the fire beat our moving van by two weeks.

S.B.: Right. Oh geez! So -- uh -- did your plan change then when you realized 00:13:00the fire was moving really quickly?

B.N.: Uh -- no. We knew we needed to get out and nothing changed. We just simply got as much stuff into the cars as fast as we could, and I said to Garth "I'll follow you" and we left.

S.B.: How did you prepare to evacuate? You put things in your cars, did you have gasoline?

B.N.: Yes, we had gas -- in the cars.

S.B.: Yes, and then what did you pack?

B.N.: All we had were our suitcases. We had two big suitcases and a small one, and the two big suitcases went into Garth's car, and the small one went into my car. And I mean, we didn't have all our clothes, we just had the ones we had packed.

S.B.: So I have to ask, was there anything that you wish you had packed that you had to leave behind?

B.N.: [laughs] uh -- it would have saved a great deal of time effort -- I didn't have a laptop, I had a desktop computer. If I had thought, I would have unplugged the computer and put it in my car so at least I could have connected with everyone immediately when I got somewhere where I could plug the computer in. We didn't - we weren't able to do that. We were -- uh -- on the missing list for a couple of weeks before we were able to reconnect with everybody and say we're here, we're alive, we're in Tucson.

S.B.: Was there anything that you packed that you absolutely did not want to leave behind, that in your mind "this is necessary to keep"?

B.N.: Well we had all of our -- we had our [coughs] driver's licenses, we could prove who we were -- that sort of thing. Uh -- it would have [coughs] been nice 00:15:00to have things we had in our lockbox that we'll probably never see again like: our wedding certificate, our birth certificates, and what have you. But -- uh -- I don't -- I don't -- you know most of the stuff we wished that we had were intangible things, things that can't be replaced. Uh -- Garth's -- all of Garth's writing, all of his journals he's been keeping -- he's an author, a published author, and he's been keeping journals since he was 16. And there were about 10 or 12 of them, all of them are gone. All of the stories that he has written in the past 10 years that he was going to publish once he got down here to Tucson, all gone. All of his painting that he's been painting all his life -- he's an artist -- all gone. All of the paintings that his father painted that we 00:16:00had in our house, all gone. All of the pottery collection that we had, baskets, kachina -- uh -- fetishes -- uh -- I mean it was like a museum in our house.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: All gone. Um -- things that you know we -- we -- we applied to FEMA for -- uh -- help in replacing things. You can replace sofas, you can replace chairs; you can't replace the stuff we lost.

S.B.: Yeah. Whew! I'm so sorry for --

B.N.: Yeah, me too [laughs].

S.B.: I'm glad you made it out safely though, the both of you.

B.N.: Yes, exactly! And we're here for a purpose. We don't know yet what the purpose is, but we know that we're here because God led us here; we're alive.

S.B.: That's right.

B.N.: And we're -- we're -- we're just trying to work our way through -- uh -- I guess the term is PTSD? Um -- our short term memory is -- is just totally shot. We can't remember anything for 5 seconds let alone -- and it's -- everyone jokes that "you're just having a senior moment", I don't think so. This is a lot worse than that, but we'll get there. We're -- we're grieving! It's a classic sign of grieving, is the fact that your short term memory takes a hike. It just isn't there for a while, and it will come back we know that.

S.B.: Yeah. I have to -- I have to ask you, do you have any animals?

B.N.: I had -- we had a dog which, praise God, we gave to a friend -- uh -- 00:18:00because we didn't want to take her down to Tucson because she had -- she wouldn't know how to deal with the desert. So we took [her] -- and gave the dog to the daughter of one of my clients from Passages, and now that dog is in Portland doing just fine thank you [laughs].

S.B.: That sounds -- yeah.

B.N.: We didn't lose any animals.

S.B.: Um -- how did you feel about leaving your home?

B.N.: [sighs] Numb. I was never frightened. I've had people say "Weren't you terrified?" No, we begin every day, and have for years, with a prayer to God saying "We put ourselves into your hands", and we figured that whatever happened it was the way it was supposed to happen. And I was never frightened, I was just 00:19:00sort of numb.

S.B.: So I have to go back to the fire and your evacuation. Who was with you left? You said you had two separate cars?

B.N.: Yeah, I was in one car; Garth was in the other we had --

S.B.: At one point, you two were separated?

B.N.: Yes and we --

S.B.: Can you explain your route?

B.N.: Okay, I got down to Chico [at Bruce Road] I was looking around for Garth. We had planned to go and stay the night at the house of our friends' Jean and Cathleen Dunning who live in Forest Ranch. And I looked around at the turnoff to go to Forest Ranch, and Garth wasn't there. I said "Well he knows where I'm going", so I drove up to Forest Ranch and -- um -- Garth wasn't there so I knew that he had to be behind me. So I sat down and started talking to our friends 00:20:00about what had happened, and pretty soon the phone rang and -- uh -- Cathleen answered it. Garth said "Is Barb there?", and she said yes. So pretty soon he joined us and we were there. And then we got another phone call that said everyone in Forest Ranch needs to evacuate. So then we had to drive down, caravan style, to Chico and we spent the night at Jean's daughter's house in Chico.

S.B.: Oh my gosh! Okay so, what was going through your mind when you had evacuated and left your home?

B.N.: "What do we do next?" Because we had made plans to have some friends fly up from Tucson [to help us move], and we were gonna meet them at the -- um -- 00:21:00Sacramento Airport on the 20th [of November]. We needed to get a hold of them and say "Cancel your flight plans, there's been a fire!" [Laughs] And we didn't know -- we didn't know what to do. We didn't want to stay with our friend's daughter -- at our friend's daughter's house --uh -- that would be grossly unfair, they can't house and feed us for who knows how long. So the logical thing to do was -- uh -- to just simply go with the plan and -- and drive down to Tucson and that's what we did. Uh -- we spent -- uh the night of the 8th, the night of the fire, and the next night [in Chico]. And then on Sunday morning -- or Saturday morning whatever it is -- we left, and got into Tucson on the 12th of November.

S.B.: Oh my gosh.

B.N.: And then -- uh -- [when we got to Tucson we] stayed at the house of 00:22:00friends here in Tucson.

S.B.: So I have to ask -- um -- at what point you said you had traveled from Paradise to -- um --

B.N.: Forest Ranch.

S.B.: Forest Ranch. And how many hours did it take for you to get to that point?

B.N.: Uh -- not long. Uh -- once I got to Chico -- it took us 5 and a half hours to get down from Paradise to Chico, it didn't take very long. It was just normal driving from Chico to Forest Ranch, and normal driving from Chico back up to Forest Ranch. Although, the sky was now this heavy mauve color because of the smoke.

S.B.: And then how long did it take for you evacuate Forest Ranch to your friend's daughter's house?

B.N.: Probably a half an hour.

S.B.: Okay. Um -- and during your second half of evacuation, did you meet any first-responders on your route to exit?

B.N.: No. The spur -- the first responders that we saw were all either in Paradise or -- uh -- down at the turnoff at Chico at -- at Bruce Road. And they were going -- you know -- "Go all into the fairgrounds" type thing. And I was going like "No I'm not gonna do that, I'm going up to Forest Ranch instead."

S.B.: Okay. Um -- did you get any support or assistance during your evacuation? Did you see any friends or anyone you knew during that time?

B.N.: Not in Paradise, no.

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: We had no idea what all of our friends were doing. Um -- we had no idea 00:24:00for several days on who was -- who was able to make it out and who didn't. I lost one of my clients.

S.B.: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm really sorry to hear that.

B.N.: Thank you.

S.B.: So, you immediately, after you left Paradise, went to Forest Ranch?

B.N.: Mm-hmm.

S.B.: And then after Forest Ranch was evacuated, you went to a friend's daughter's house in Chico?

B.N.: Right.

S.B.: Um -- why did you go to your friend's house in Forest Ranch?

B.N.: They actually [planned to come] over the morning of the fire to have breakfast with us at Jackie's Hilltop Cafe in Magalia, the morning of the fire. They were gonna meet us, 9 o'clock at Jackie's Hilltop Cafe, and we phoned them. 00:25:00It was one of the things we did before we left. We phoned them and said "Don't come [laughs], there's a fire!" They said, "Yes, we know." And so I said, "Okay, we're coming over to your house", and they said "Fine."

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: So that's where that is.

S.B.: It was just your social plan for that day?

B.N.: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And that's why Garth knew where -- when he couldn't find me, he knew where to phone because he knew where I was going.

S.B.: That's really good.

B.N.: Yeah. I mean, God was with us each step of the way.

S.B.: When you finally arrived to your final destination in Chico, what do you recall feeling?

B.N.: Numb. And Gene and Cathleen were both saying "Oh you need to stay here in 00:26:00-- in -- uh -- Chico, because there's a chance your house didn't burn down." And I looked at Garth and I said, "I don't think so."

S.B.: Wow.

B.N.: There ain't nothing left baby! [Laughs] It's gone. And -- uh that -- we stayed -- we stayed the night of the 8th, and we stayed the night of the 9th. And on the 9th I bought my first cell phone that I've ever had, and that was where I was able to reconnect with people and say we're alive. And I could only reconnect with people who were in my phonebook if they weren't in my phonebook, bye-bye [laughs]. I'm still re -- to this -- yesterday I had two phone calls from people who were able to find out where we were and phone us, and it's been four months.

S.B.: Oh my gosh. So is there -- is there anything else that you want to share 00:27:00about your evacuation?

B.N.: Yeah [sighs]. And I don't exactly know how to -- uh -- say it. Other than the fact that, obviously with the weather conditions in the United States, and with 9-1-1, and with all of the other -- uh -- traumatic events that happened in the last year alone I am strongly suggesting that there needs to be a central agency of some kind that helps people figure out what to do -- uh -- when something like this happens. [Garth comments something in the background] Uh -- 00:28:00I mean, among other things when I started to reconnect with -- with -- uh -- I need to change my address, I need to change my telephone number, I need to change my email [address]. I lost our email. That's one of the casualties of the fire, because Google said, "Well I need your password" and I couldn't to this day cannot remember what my password was. And as far as -- because there is no way to contact a person at Google, it's gone. It's gone forever, and all the email addresses that I had -- all the frantic people that wanted to know where we were, I can't answer them. And it would be really helpful to have somebody with the authority to say "Hey", because I tried to contact all of these different people and they'd say things like "Well this doesn't mat -- the 00:29:00information that you're giving me doesn't match our records." Well of course it doesn't match your records, everything we had burned up! So I mean -- just that sort of thing. It would be real helpful if there was somebody. And then there was the fact that, unless you've been through something like this -- some sort of traumatic event -- and you know what happens, nobody understands where you're at. The fact that both Garth and I are just wiped most of the time, we don't have any energy, we don't have any ability to -- to -- uh -- act normal. And people are going "Huh? Well what's the matter with you? You've been here for four months, why aren't you up and at it?" It's gonna take a little longer than 00:30:00that, people.

S.B.: Yeah. Whew!

B.N.: I'm sorry, I'm unloading on you and that's not fair.

S.B.: No, no, no I want to hear. And I'm so glad that you are willing to share, and I think it's important to put that out there that it is

B.N.: And grieving! It's classic grieving.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: And I know a lot about that because it's one of my areas of expertise. And I know what happens when you lose -- okay, you can lose people, you can also lose things, you could lose your life you know? And I mean we're not in any way like the people coming back from Vietnam or from the Middle East or -- uh -- that sort of thing. We didn't have to change cultures, or languages, or anything like that. I mean, we've got it pretty good really.

S.B.: Well I think that's a good -- that's a good perspective though, that there -- you have been through a very traumatic event.

B.N.: Mm-hmm.

S.B.: Um --

B.N.: Mm-hmm.

S.B.: I want to ask a couple questions about shelter, and you have talked a little bit about this. Um -- that you slept at a friend's daughter's house the first night of the fire --

B.N.: Mm-hmm.

S.B.: -- and then the next night of the fire. Um -- do you remember what you ate the first night that you evacuated?

B.N.: We went out and had something somewhere, some sort of a -- yeah -- I know where it was -- uh -- I don't know the name of it. But we went and had a dinner, and we just pecked at it because we couldn't really eat. Uh -- for almost a month afterwards, we weren't eating much because we simply just didn't -- we didn't have any appetite.

S.B.: Um -- can you tell me what influenced where you stayed and ate the first 00:32:00few weeks after the fire? You said you --

B.N.: We were driving around and looking for some place that was open [laughs].

S.B.: You know -- because you had traveled -- you had made plans to travel to your new home.

B.N.: Yeah. So we were in Chico driving around trying to find some place that was open, and we found some place and we just stopped there and we had dinner there. And then -- uh -- the next morning we had sort of -- uh -- uh -- dainty breakfast. I mean, nobody was into -- we were all glued to the TV set watching fire updates all day long. We weren't really interested in eating [laughs].

S.B.: Right. Um -- when you were at your friend's daughter's house, and there were how many people there at the time? Like 7 people?

B.N.: Yeah, right.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: And we're all just sitting there glued in front of the TV set. They had one of those big screen TVs, and we were just -- that's where we were most of the day. Just sitting there going "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God!" [Laughs]

S.B.: How did you feel about sheltering there for the short amount of time you were there?

B.N.: Uncomfortable, because of the fact that -- Gene and Kathleen we've known for years, for 10 years, and we've been in their home over and over again. We had never been to his daughter's house ever, and we felt uncomfortable there. Like we were barging in on them. And I didn't have much in the way of money on me, because I was waiting for a paycheck to come in on the 20th so I couldn't go -- I couldn't go in and say "Hey let me take you out to dinner" or that sort of thing. I mean, it was dicey all the way around.

S.B.: And -- um -- I'm sorry that you've already said this but can you tell me 00:34:00how long you stayed at that place?

B.N.: Two days. We were there -- we were there the night of the fire, and the next night -- the 9th -- and then on the 10th we took off and we drove from Chico to Tonopah, Nevada, and spent the night in Tonopah, Nevada in a motel. And then we drove from Tonopah to Tucson the next day, and we got here in Tucson on the 12th in the evening. And we already phoned our friends, and they were waiting for us and we spent the night with them.

S.B.: Do you remember what you ate along the road there?

B.N.: [laughs] not much, we weren't hungry.

S.B.: You were not, yeah. Alright is there anything else you want to share about your experience evacuating and being displaced from your home?

B.N.: Um -- we don't want to go back. We're here in Tucson; Tucson is our home. This is where we lived for 25 years. Uh -- where we go from now is entirely in God's hands. Yeah, we might move to Texas because -- uh -- our kid is in -- in Canyon Lake, Texas, which is in the hill country -- uh -- between San Antonio and Austin. And they're in the process of -- uh -- searching for some land, and they're gonna build a house. And now they're talking about building a mother-in-law house behind a house, and we may end up there eventually.

S.B.: Yeah. So I wanna ask a couple more questions --

B.N.: Okay.

S.B.: -- about -- uh -- sheltering. And I know you were outside of the area for most of the month of November.

B.N.: Right.

S.B.: But the air quality in Butte County was measured by the EPA during November as the worst air quality --

B.N.: Yes!

S.B.: -- in the world.

B.N.: Yes. We have all sorts of little nuggets of information. Like for instance, do you know that [clears throat] the temperature of the -- uh -- fire was measured at one point at 2,000 degrees, and the wind was 240 miles an hour? That is by any stretch a stage four hurricane! That's why it went so quick.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: I mean, it -- it started in Pulga at about -- I think it was -- 6:10 in 00:37:00the morning.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: And it jumped the river and it was in Paradise in 10 minutes.

S.B.: Yeah. What was your experience with the air when you were Chico, and then later when you drove east?

B.N.: I was absolutely amazed at the color of the sky. I mean, it was a dark mauve color. Not black, black was up in Paradise, but -- you know -- almost purplish color. Uh -- and -- uh -- I didn't have any trouble breathing, but lots of people did.

S.B.: Right. Um -- and during the first week there was a norovirus outbreak at a lot of the public shelters -- uh -- were you in any way affected by that?

B.N.: No. Uh-uh, we haven't been sick in the classic sense of the word since the fire.

S.B.: Wow.

B.N.: We've been very lucky.

S.B.: That's incredible. Um -- in the second week of November President Trump visited the burn area, and he visited Paradise. What did you think of his visit?

B.N.: We weren't there [laughs].

S.B.: You weren't there?

B.N.: We weren't there, yeah.

S.B.: Okay. Um -- before the Camp Fire in September of 2018, Butte County declared a shelter housing crisis.

B.N.: Hmm.

S.B.: What do you think about the county's response to the challenge of sheltering Camp Fire survivors?

B.N.: [laughs] well they got their answer when the fire came! God only knows. We're maintaining contact with lots and lots of the people that both Garth's 00:39:00clients and my clients, who are main -- maintaining a lot of contact with a lot of them. Simply because for the fact that we know we can talk to them and know what we're talking about.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: You know, they've been there.

S.B.: That's actually my next question. A lot of evacuees have been displaced to other parts of Northern California and to the United States. And how have you been able to connect? Is it mostly through telephone?

B.N.: Uh -- either through telephone or letter. And then we've got one -- uh -- she started out as one of my clients, and then became a friend of ours. and she -- uh -- is now down here in the same apartment that we are in. But she's all by herself.

S.B.: Oh.

B.N.: And -- um -- she's uh -- uh -- Section 8 -- uh -- and she's having a lot of problems trying to find -- um -- -- uh -- how to work that and switching from 00:40:00state to state. Because when she phoned Section 8 right after the fire when she was in Chico, they told her flat out "If you have a way of doing so, get out of California, --

S.B.: Oh my gosh.

B.N.: -- because there isn't any other place for you to go!"

S.B.: Whew, that tough. That's really tough, but you have been able to maintain contact with folks?

B.N.: Yes.

S.B.: That's really good.

B.N.: Yes -- or at least some of them. Some of them I know where -- or at least right after the fire -- I knew that they had made it through. They were in Chico somewhere. And I have -- I haven't really followed through to find out where they're at and how they're doing because I just don't have enough energy to do that.

S.B.: Yeah. Well I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me -- I really do -- and I'm --

B.N.: Well this is your healing baby!

S.B.: I'm glad.

B.N.: Truly.

S.B.: I have to ask you one more question about -- um -- about sheltering. And you may not be aware of this but Red Cross had set up a public shelter at the Silver Down -- Silver Dollar County Fairgrounds in Chico.

B.N.: Mm-hmm, yes.

S.B.: And they announced they were closing that shelter --

B.N.: Right.

S -- in January. What do you think of the emergency relief organization's decision to close that shelter?

B.N.: I don't know enough to be able to tell you one way or the other, but I do know this: given what's been happening in -- in -- in with the weather related stuff in -- um -- the last month or so -- uh -- the United States really has to start looking at -- uh -- a different kind of infrastructure to help people.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: Because -- I mean -- what do you do when you've lost everything? Where do 00:42:00you go? Uh -- right now Garth and I are -- uh -- at a point where we could use an infusion of some cash -- uh -- because I haven't been -- I cannot go out and find myself a detail oriented job, or even a part time job anywhere because I can't remember anything. The only type of job I can do is what I was doing in Paradise, where I was working for Passages as a senior companion because it's a people-related type job, and that I can do.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: I can run my mouth and talk to people, So I mean -- it would be real nice if there was some sort of -- uh -- an agency. I guess I'm gonna have to bite the bullet, and get a hold of FEMA again and say "Hey we could use some more -- uh -- financial help." Uh -- it's just really hard to do, because -- uh --- the -- 00:43:00uh -- computer system for any type of agency like that is extremely complicated. And they want you to do this and that -- you know -- password and so forth and on and on. And then they say "We'll get back to you", and they never do or you know -- it's -- it's just confusion. No matter where you go it's confusion.

S.B.: Yeah. Whew. Okay -- um -- I am gonna switch gears now, and we're gonna start to talk about recovery. Um -- can you share with me your experience of recovery?

B.N.: No, we didn't have insurance.

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: The reason we didn't have insurance is because we had some extremely old and valuable, rare pieces of pottery that were like over a thousand years [old]. And -- uh -- there was no way we could have afforded any kind of insurance for it.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: It would have cost us a couple thousand dollars a month to just have 00:44:00insurance, so we just simply said "No we're not gonna do this, we're gonna put this in God's hands and let it go." And so we -- we didn't have any type of insurance except for our automobile insurance, no homeowners insurance of any kind.

S.B.: Okay. What kind of support have you been able to receive, either from the state or from the government? Did -- did you end up receiving assistance through FEMA?

B.N.: Yes, we did receive some -- uh -- uh -- uh --

S.B.: You don't have to tell me the amount.

B.N.: -- not a lot, but I'm thinking probably several thousand dollars we received from FEMA. I'd have to go and check my figures, but somewhere in that area. And -- uh -- what I would like to do is contact them and see if we could get some more help with rent. They said we could, but they also said we should contact the Small Business Administration and I'm going, "Wait a minute, I'm not 00:45:00a business." And they said, "No they also do disaster assistance." So we go, "Oh great!" And we got a hold of SBA, Small Business Administration, and they said given our story we're approved for a low interest loan of $40,000. And we were like "Wow! That would be super." We could pay off our car loans.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: We would be in pretty good shape. "No you can't use the money that way. The only way you could use the money we give you is to replace things you have lost." Most of what we lost cannot be replaced.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: We ended up in the end saying "I'm sorry but we -- even at a 2% loan, we cannot afford it, our budget is too tight." Like I say every time we turned around we'd run into a wall.

S.B.: Right, and I guess that's my next question too -- and you shared a little 00:46:00bit via email about this -- what have been your experiences dealing with bureaucracies since your evacuation? You talked about the bank and the phone situation that you had, can you share a little bit with me about that?

B.N.: Okay first of all, I wanna say loudly and clearly that the first responders up there in Paradise -- the fire people and whoever else were there -- were absolutely angels.

S.B.: Okay.

B.N.: They were wonderful.-- the first responders, the fire people that were standing on the edge of the road with the fires behind them, waving us forward -- woah! I mean -- uh -- when we got down here [to Tucson] we went to a little place called Tubac and there were people with -- uh -- little concessions all 00:47:00over the place. One was from the Tubac Fire Department, and they were handing out free sun [baseball] caps because it was very sunny. And we told them our story.

S.B.: Mm-hmm.

B.N.: And they actually had tears running down their faces, and so did we [voice breaks], because they knew what we had gone through. I just -- I can't say too much about the fire people. Now, vis-a-vis the other people who I contacted, some of them surprisingly enough -- the FEDS were great. The minute I started talking, they knew instantly where I was from. They said, "No problem, just give me your -- give me your new address and so forth." It didn't require any written statement or anything like that. It was done real quickly, like less than half an hour.

S.B.: Wow.

B.N.: On some of the other stuff, like all the -- uh -- electronic debits that 00:48:00we had on our bank account, or all of our bills where we had to go in. And I -- I'd say to -- uh -- like -- uh -- AT&T [I kept saying] "I need to have my account number because I don't have it with me, it burned up." I spent days on the phone, and I can remember -- uh -- Garth coming in and saying to me, because my computer is set up in the bedroom and he's saying "Are you alright?" Because I would be sitting there on the phone screaming at people, "Listen to me!" And you know "Well I can't help you, but maybe somebody else can." I mean the confusion was just unbelievable.

S.B.: That's so infuriating, I'm really sorry.

B.N.: It's fine.

S.B.: I feel like in -- I don't know -- I feel like I'm a pretty high-functioning person myself and sometimes when I am faced with bureaucracy I 00:49:00have a really hard time.

B.N.: Yeah.

S.B.: Connecting with the human side of a person --

B.N.: Yeah!

S.B.: -- that you're talking to --

B.N.: Yeah, and every once in a while I would get somebody who'd say "Oh my God, I am so sorry." we met somebody at the front desk [of an agency in Tucson] who just come through Katrina --

S.B.: Wow.

B.N.: -- and she says, "Oh my God, I know where you are."

S.B.: Wow. That's incredible --

B.N.: Yeah.

S.B.: -- that she knew your experience.

B.N.: Yeah, and for a while there, because it was therapeutic to do. We told our story to everyone we met. We had to.

S.B.: Yeah, yeah. Well it's part of -- you know -- how you came to be in Tucson.

B.N.: Yeah, yeah.

S.B.: I have to ask you now -- um -- what are your long term plans? You mentioned --

B.N.: [laughs]

S.B.: -- you might be moving to Texas.

B.N.: Uh -- possibly.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: It's not set in stone, I don't know. We will go where God guides us, even 00:50:00if it's to Texas. We won't go unless God says it's where we're supposed to go.

S.B.: Right.

B.N.: We've done that all our lives.

S.B.: Um -- I have to ask you, what are you worried about.

B.N.: Hmm, when I worry in the middle of the night - money.

S.B.: Yeah. And what -- what brings you hope?

B.N.: [takes a breath] Being with my husband. Thank God we have each other [voice breaks]. And we've got good friends here in Tucson, they don't have a clue what we're going through, but nonetheless they're there for us.

B.N.: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

S.B.: I think your spirit comes through too and I think -- you know -- Garth's as well when I was talking to him. I think this is a very powerful lesson in resilience.

B.N.: Well not only that, but I have to -- I have to say flat out that whenever there's a major disaster of any kind whatever it is, out of it comes blessings.

S.B.: Yeah.

B.N.: Okay. Blessings all a -- all around. We're actually better off now, than we were in Paradise. I'm not just sure where, but I know they're there.